Georgian Bay Message Board

General Discussion => Fishing Georgian Bay => Topic started by: Saugeen Drifter on April 10, 2020, 12:24:00 pm

Title: Salmon Spoons
Post by: Saugeen Drifter on April 10, 2020, 12:24:00 pm
I have a question for all you summer salmon hunters; Georgian Bay and Lake Huron are as different as Lake Ontario and Lake Superior when it comes to salmon fishing. From experience I have learned what works on Huron (spoon colours, set ups) does not work as effectively on GB. I have recently moved 9km from GB and will be fishing it this year. What should I be using as far as spoons? For example, purples work well on Huron but have never caught a fish on GB on a purple spoon, dipseys work well on Huron, not so much on GB. Any pointers would be great. PM me if you don't want the group ridicule. I know during the derby meat is very popular, I've tried that and over 5 years of fishing the entire derby took 2 salmon on meat. Catch more on lyman.
Thanks
Title: Re: Salmon Spoons
Post by: Krawler on April 10, 2020, 01:28:01 pm
Iím always looking for the next best spoon or colour pattern for the bay.
In the end every year it always comes back to colour.
Greens and blues. Mind you Iíll put out a variation of different colours early and then again later in the season. But you canít go wrong with a variation of greens and blues. Mind you I do find some greens and blues are better than others.
Speed is also a big factor, certain brand of spoons will run differently than others.
This off season I've bought 30 new spoons, with a variation of colours that Iím confident will fire. Some west coast stuff too.
My favourite brands for the Bay are Hotfish, Meegs, Moonshine and Northern King.

Hope this helps.
Title: Re: Salmon Spoons
Post by: Seguin Fisher on April 11, 2020, 04:39:47 pm
Itís funny how one persons best colours are not even close to the next persons. I have personally done very well on GB with purples. Mostly NKs and Nasty Boys with purple/white back or purple /black back. Iíve also done extremely well with both gold coloured spoons as well as some orange. Iíve caught quite a few on an orange monkey puke NK, in a smaller size as well as the standard size. Iíve also caught some fish on Dipseys on the bay, although I am usually just using downriggers most of the time.
Title: Re: Salmon Spoons
Post by: BillM on April 13, 2020, 04:32:28 pm
Confidence spoons always go down first, end up getting bit then you just keep putting them down over and over, lol.   It's a wicked game!
Title: Re: Salmon Spoons
Post by: MarkD on April 17, 2020, 01:45:25 pm
I do not have even close experience in trolling comparing to most of you, guys, but I'd like to say that if fishermen would know a bit more about math probability they would stop talking about things like lure colors and many other...
Really, from scientific point of view, even though we all could combine our experience with the lures, it is impossible to proof which one works better.
Think about all different types of variation we have in our fishing "experiments": spoon color/size/ shape; clarity/color of water; speed of the spoon; fishing depth; lightness of the day (sunny, cloudy etc); time of the year; time of the day... I probably still missed a lot... Add here that we all know: if there is no fish around, then no lure would catch it. And the opposite: if there is a lot of hungry fish willing to bite almost any lure will succeed.
Combining it all, there are millions of variation... So it is impossible to confidently say that one particular lure color works better than another.
Saying all that I'll still listen to Krawler advise about green/blue and get and use some of that to substitute my golden/silver stuff. Why? I'm sure I cannot be wrong with it... At the very least it all doesn't matter..
Title: Re: Salmon Spoons
Post by: BillM on April 24, 2020, 01:40:06 am
I do not have even close experience in trolling comparing to most of you, guys, but I'd like to say that if fishermen would know a bit more about math probability they would stop talking about things like lure colors and many other...
Really, from scientific point of view, even though we all could combine our experience with the lures, it is impossible to proof which one works better.
Think about all different types of variation we have in our fishing "experiments": spoon color/size/ shape; clarity/color of water; speed of the spoon; fishing depth; lightness of the day (sunny, cloudy etc); time of the year; time of the day... I probably still missed a lot... Add here that we all know: if there is no fish around, then no lure would catch it. And the opposite: if there is a lot of hungry fish willing to bite almost any lure will succeed.
Combining it all, there are millions of variation... So it is impossible to confidently say that one particular lure color works better than another.
Saying all that I'll still listen to Krawler advise about green/blue and get and use some of that to substitute my golden/silver stuff. Why? I'm sure I cannot be wrong with it... At the very least it all doesn't matter..

How is it impossible if one lure gets ate 6 times and the other zero all other conditions being the same?    Perhaps a little better understanding of fishing is in order before making statements like almost any lure will succeed, lol.
Title: Re: Salmon Spoons
Post by: MarkD on April 24, 2020, 11:20:48 am
Quote
Perhaps a little better understanding of fishing is in order
Perhaps.
This is what I'm trying to achieve.
If you wouldn't mind, could you give the specific example of such situation:
Quote
one lure gets ate 6 times and the other zero all other conditions being the same
Perhaps it would sound like this:
We run two down riggers side by side for X hours with different lures and then we switched the lures and run again X hours. The result: First X hours lure A produced N fishes and lure B produced Zero fishes and at the second X hours Lure A produced M fishes and lure B produced twice less...
That would sound somehow scientifically and as such trustful.
But even though we cannot be quite sure that in different environmental conditions (weather, temperature, water clarity etc) the lure B would not outperform the lure A.
Also, perhaps you could realize that I do not say all lures are equal in results. What I'm saying is that it is close to impossible to proof which one is better in given conditions.
And this topic actually indicate this because two fishermen (Krawler and Seguin Fisher) with good skills and experience have different opinion on lure colors.
Title: Re: Salmon Spoons
Post by: MarkD on April 25, 2020, 10:38:32 pm
I found a link on another forum regarding the thing we are talking about here.
I case that not everybody from this board also subscribed to that forum I paste the link to this article here.
https://www.glangler.com/blogs/articles/speed-traps-by-capt-mike-schoonveld
From this thorough article you could see that even right trolling speed may vary without known base. If we add here just lure types and colors, then we will get a really great ambiguity... But  there are many more environmental varieties.
Title: Re: Salmon Spoons
Post by: Grandpa Jim on May 06, 2020, 09:23:25 am
Over the years, I've learned that lure colours are a serious factor in enjoying a successful day when downrigging for salmon. Depth is a prime consideration when selecting colours. It is a well established fact that the colour spectrum is quite sensitive to varying depths. For example red and orange colours fade significantly as you work from shallow depths to deeper water. Conversely, blue colours remain more visible if you are running deep set-ups. Chartreuse and green colours are effective in mid-range trolling. Silver finishes reflect more light than chrome finishes. Point is that depth may be the most significant factor as opposed to trying to determine what colour produces best in varying lakes or water bodies. Obviously water clarity (such as Georgian Bay) is yet another factor to consider. Keeping written records of what proved successful for you on various outings will help to build confidence. More importantly, it will reduce the amount of time you spend switching lures and colour combinations. This practice is a common one but you simply can't catch fish with the lures being continuously shuffled from the rigger to the tackle box. You'll eventually establish your favourite lures for the location you are working. If I had to select the single most important factor for a successful trolling outing I'd have to pass on colours and finishes and concentrate on trolling speed.
Title: Re: Salmon Spoons
Post by: Krawler on May 06, 2020, 09:48:11 am
Well said Jim.  Always enjoy reading your posts and responses.  Talisman on the water this year?  Penetang or ??
Title: Re: Salmon Spoons
Post by: MarkD on May 06, 2020, 11:21:24 am
Thanks for the post, Jim. Really, well said.
I'd like just to add that when we talk about color diminishing down the water column, we talk about emitted light not the reflection light. That simply means that in mid range (where red light is disappears), the red color lure would be seen as black, green still as green and blue as blue. Go deeper, and green will become black thus only blue is reflecting. Still, all other colors are remain visible as black amid bluish water column.
But this is only physical aspects of the light. Ironically, during my university degree I was studying exactly psychological aspects of color vision. So, whatever human see as any specific color does not mean that fish or other animal would see it as same. I remember there was a study several years ago which concluded that deer see hunting orange as blue. May be or may be not.
But based on this theoretical observation, the most universal and unerring colors would be mirror-like (such as bright silver, as it will reflect light in different colors on any depth) and black color (which would be seen as black in any surrounding). And - no surprises - this is the colors of the most fish scales.
But, Jim, you said
Quote
Silver finishes reflect more light than chrome finishes
What is the difference? I was considering silver and chrome reflect essentially the same colors. Could you, please, clarify?
Thank you!
Title: Re: Salmon Spoons
Post by: Grandpa Jim on May 07, 2020, 11:48:56 am
Spoons that have a silver coating (Williams, Sutton, etc) reflect more light than spoons that are chrome finished. When trolling deep water the chrome finished spoons reflect less light. To increase light reflection, a number of spoon manufacturers offer "hammered" or dimpled surfaces. I have to admit that I lack the technical/scientific knowledge to further explain this long established issue. I know from several decades of experience that silver coated spoons outproduce chrome counterparts significantly, especially when running deep set-ups.
Title: Re: Salmon Spoons
Post by: MarkD on May 07, 2020, 12:36:01 pm
Thanks, Jim!
I'm not asking for technical details but for me, when I look at the spoon I don't see the difference between silver and chrome. Actually, before you mentioned it here I thought they all the same.
So is it possible to distinguish by look the silver from chrome? If not could you please give me more examples of silver and chrome spoons.
Also, are Williams suitable for trolling? I only used them for ice fishing and didn't think they are good for casting or trolling as they are very light. I mostly use Little Cleo which are a bit heavy and also seem to be more durable than William. Williams get corroded or dim quite fast especially if neglected.
Also could you give an advise about the size of the spoon. I heard for salmon the biggest spoons should be used. Is it correct?
Thank you!
Title: Re: Salmon Spoons
Post by: Canuck on May 07, 2020, 08:35:56 pm
Wading in.  I have heard the same, that silver plate is better than chrome.  I don't believe it myself.  As for williams for trolling, I would say no.  They just have a spinning action when trolled at constant speed.  Not good for salmon.  But great for pike with a twitch, reel, twitch pause action.  They are my go to lure for pike. 


For salmon you need something that flops around and darts in random ways.
Title: Re: Salmon Spoons
Post by: MarkD on May 07, 2020, 09:56:55 pm
Quote
For salmon you need something that flops around and darts in random ways.
Canuck, could you please, specify?
I have very little experience in trolling, using only little cleo spoons, rapalas and recently some simple plugs.
I would appreciate any advises on working salmon lures.
Thanks.
Title: Re: Salmon Spoons
Post by: Jonnylarue on May 08, 2020, 12:21:24 pm
Little cleos are fairly thick and heavy for their size. Spoons like Moonshine, Michigan Stinger, Dreamweaver and NK are all thin fluttering spoons that give an erratic action when trolled. They ďdanceĒ so to speak.
Title: Re: Salmon Spoons
Post by: MarkD on May 08, 2020, 12:29:12 pm
Thanks! Will check them when stores open...
Title: Re: Salmon Spoons
Post by: Krawler on May 09, 2020, 08:58:55 am
Hotfish and Meegs spoons are a staple in my spread more so from April -June when I tend to troll slower bc of the cold water temp.
When water temps heat up Iíll troll a bit faster and use moonshine, northern king, Meegs and Dreamweaver in a mag size.
August we start running larger baits and plugs like Meegs or Lyman or moonshine. Faster speeds bigger, heavier lures.
Pm me if you want contacts to purchase spoons.
Title: Re: Salmon Spoons
Post by: MarkD on May 09, 2020, 03:32:24 pm
Krawler, thanks for the detailed info.
Will keep it in mind.
Title: Re: Salmon Spoons
Post by: Canuck on May 11, 2020, 05:53:03 pm
Canuck, could you please, specify?
I have very little experience in trolling, using only little cleo spoons, rapalas and recently some simple plugs.
I would appreciate any advises on working salmon lures.
Thanks.


You got some good advice from Kris above on lures.  And some other good advice from Jim on colours. 

I can tell you that like most of the people on this board, I have more salmon lures than I need and in all colours and sizes and brands.  And sometimes I catch fish and sometimes you don't.  When you can find them and they are biting they seem to hit a variety and its not always the same day to day.  Who knows what goes on in those pea-sized salmon brains.

I would add that I run flashers with flies or herring strip once we get late in the summer.
Title: Re: Salmon Spoons
Post by: MarkD on May 13, 2020, 12:13:54 pm
Yes, Canuck, I got very good help from Jim and Krawler (Kris?) and from you as well.
I really appreciate it. I started GB trolling only last year and now I would say i know a bit about it.
Thanks all!
Title: Re: Salmon Spoons
Post by: Canuck on May 14, 2020, 08:50:57 am
Yes, Canuck, I got very good help from Jim and Krawler (Kris?) and from you as well.
I really appreciate it. I started GB trolling only last year and now I would say i know a bit about it.
Thanks all!


Hope to see you out there, and soon!.  I am always on VHF 16 when on the water.  Boat/call name is Gratitude. Hard to miss the boat. Its a Sea Ray 330.  My name is Frank.
Title: Re: Salmon Spoons
Post by: MarkD on May 15, 2020, 12:48:01 pm
Thanks for the info, Frank!
I am on the way smaller scale... I have 16' aluminum utility boat with 20HP tiller. Quite small for GB... Don't even have radio...
I usually go to the area between Go Home and Moon river. Seems like not so good for salmon fishing, but the nice scenery and we usually spend a whole day in there from sunrise to sunset. Some trolling, some swimming, some pike/bass fishing.  Usually stay close to the shore unless the weather prediction is really calm.
Occasionally go to Collingwood if I really want fish in the freezer.
Title: Re: Salmon Spoons
Post by: Canuck on May 15, 2020, 04:36:36 pm
Thanks for the info, Frank!
I am on the way smaller scale... I have 16' aluminum utility boat with 20HP tiller. Quite small for GB... Don't even have radio...
I usually go to the area between Go Home and Moon river. Seems like not so good for salmon fishing, but the nice scenery and we usually spend a whole day in there from sunrise to sunset. Some trolling, some swimming, some pike/bass fishing.  Usually stay close to the shore unless the weather prediction is really calm.
Occasionally go to Collingwood if I really want fish in the freezer.


I have heard that around the mouth of 12 mile bay is an area that salmon are caught in the summer.  I have never tried, but I do go up there a few times a year to go back into the Massassauga park bays.  I have no idea where specifically, but if anyone on here knows, please speak up.
Title: Re: Salmon Spoons
Post by: MarkD on May 18, 2020, 01:05:43 am
(I think I was subscribed for this topic but didn't get notification for some reason)

I seems like I'm only the person on this board who fished north of Go Home...
I can say that we go there almost every week for a day if the weather Ok. I troll about 4 hours in the morning and then 2-3 hours before sunset. I have one downrigger and for the second line I use just divers, Rapala or alike. Surprisingly, I got my first salmon on Rapala, but never get anything else on it since.
Sometimes we get a fish, sometimes none, one time we got 2. I would say we get less than 0.5 fish per outing. Not sure how good/bad it is, considering my modest gear and experience.
I see sometimes 2-3 boats around, but never saw anyone catches anything.
As for the specific area I can't say much. It is very rocky and uneven bottom there. I usually try to keep somewhere close to slopes or structures but if don't see any marks I go further to the open area and deeper water and I got a couple fishes there as well.
I don't think we got any rainbow over there (I got a couple off Collingwood), but I got one small whitefish and one average laker.
Generally, definitely, it is slower than in Collingwood and a way slower than in Ontario. But in all other aspects it very nice area...
Title: Re: Salmon Spoons
Post by: Grandpa Jim on May 24, 2020, 06:25:09 am
It is quite common to see a fair number of very well equipped fishing boats trolling the waters off 12 Mile Bay and out from Sans Souci just south of Henry's. The area around the Western Islands produces salmon and 'bows as well but requires a very alert helmsman due to constant fluctuations in bottom depths. The Westerns used to be a regular stop for us on trips up the east shore but in the past few years it has become so popular that it would rival Beckwith for overnighting boaters.
Title: Re: Salmon Spoons
Post by: MarkD on May 24, 2020, 03:27:16 pm
We were actually yesterday on Western Islands. Spent a day from 12 Miles to Westerns. No fish, no hits. Only few marks as well, not sure if these were fish or just debris.
As you mention before, Jim, salmon now probably is in the upper column, so kept on line constantly at around 15-20Ft and played with downrigger. I also turn on my sonar side view imaging in hope to see fish around, but not. Not sure if it is possible at all though...
I was two days ago on LO, got three hits, two fishes and watch fish following the ball twice. Surprisingly, it all happened at about 55 ft, and most marks I saw were even deeper, at 100 ft and more.
Title: Re: Salmon Spoons
Post by: Canuck on May 24, 2020, 04:05:31 pm
I find the salmon in spring unpredictable. I think the water is so cold they donít relate to temperature as much as trout do. You need to find bait. Smelt are deep and I expect that is the forage. Alewife are all but gone from Georgian Bay. They spawn near shore in June so that uses to bring salmon close to shore. Who knows. I generally donít get too serious about salmon till mid to late June.
Title: Re: Salmon Spoons
Post by: Grandpa Jim on May 24, 2020, 04:51:04 pm
It would be nice if you could consistently predict the depths to troll for salmon based on the time of year. However, on Georgian Bay, water temps vary based on a number of factors. I look for temps in the high 40's for salmon and low to mid 50's for rainbows. Winds can create pronounced changes in water temps. Early season salmon trolling demands a lot of patience. For example I have had significant success at Owen Sound just after ice-out trolling with the cannonballs very close to bottom over 160 feet of water. So there goes the general belief that the fish will be high in the water column. The very next day after west winds, we've done well running lead-core off the planer boards quite close to shore in 35 to 40 feet of water. The following week we can be off Collingwood in the little tinny very early in the morning flatlining AC Shiners off the planer boards well inside 20 feet of water and taking some very nice rainbows. Point is that change is constant on Georgian Bay and you should be prepared to adjust your set-ups in order to take fish.
Ideally, it would be nice to have a two rod limit per angler so you could experiment with the riggers, divers and copper and lead-core rigs but I wouldn't hold my breath on the MNR changing the one rod per angler regulation. My boat was launched Friday at Hindson's but, like Canuck I'll not get too excited until late June for trolling for Salmon.
Title: Re: Salmon Spoons
Post by: MarkD on May 25, 2020, 11:57:29 am
Quote
I generally donít get too serious about salmon till mid to late June.
Yes, Frank, I was very frustrated last year not getting anything in May-June and was taught by Jim that salmon will start to hit in August. And really, we get our first salmon on August 1 and were getting some later...
However, I still don't understand why. From what you, Jim and other are saying it appears that early season fish is there and only difference from later time is that it is on unpredictable depth and most likely in upper column where it cannot be detected by sonar. If it is only the case we still should get some..
Quote
Ideally, it would be nice to have a two rod limit per angler so you could experiment with the riggers, divers and copper and lead-core rigs but I wouldn't hold my breath on the MNR changing the one rod per angler regulation
Jim, this is the most frustrated thing regarding fishing GB that only one line is allowed while commercial fishing is still going on. As far as I know MNR now is hidden very well from our comments and suggestion, but could we do something else to force them for change? May be start a petition or write to local PM or other local authorities?
Title: Re: Salmon Spoons
Post by: Canuck on May 25, 2020, 02:52:02 pm
It would be nice if you could consistently predict the depths to troll for salmon based on the time of year. However, on Georgian Bay, water temps vary based on a number of factors. I look for temps in the high 40's for salmon and low to mid 50's for rainbows. Winds can create pronounced changes in water temps. Early season salmon trolling demands a lot of patience. For example I have had significant success at Owen Sound just after ice-out trolling with the cannonballs very close to bottom over 160 feet of water. So there goes the general belief that the fish will be high in the water column. The very next day after west winds, we've done well running lead-core off the planer boards quite close to shore in 35 to 40 feet of water. The following week we can be off Collingwood in the little tinny very early in the morning flatlining AC Shiners off the planer boards well inside 20 feet of water and taking some very nice rainbows. Point is that change is constant on Georgian Bay and you should be prepared to adjust your set-ups in order to take fish.
Ideally, it would be nice to have a two rod limit per angler so you could experiment with the riggers, divers and copper and lead-core rigs but I wouldn't hold my breath on the MNR changing the one rod per angler regulation. My boat was launched Friday at Hindson's but, like Canuck I'll not get too excited until late June for trolling for Salmon.


Jim, I keep my boat at Hindson too.  I have seen your boat around.  I generally go out with a guy that is also at Hindson, but his boat is not set up for trolling, so we use mine.  I am at slip A7 if you are around later in the summer. Not in the water yet.  I was out early last fall, so will be in late. 
Title: Re: Salmon Spoons
Post by: Homelands101 on May 25, 2020, 04:56:33 pm
Really would be nice if there was a two rod limit and a greater focus on Chinook stocking in Georgian
Title: Re: Salmon Spoons
Post by: MarkD on May 25, 2020, 05:13:37 pm
As I heard MNR stopped chinook stoking several years ago due to there beliefs that it's still reproduces poorly in GB. Instead, they switched to laker stocking as it is native to GB.
Not sure if it is true...
Title: Re: Salmon Spoons
Post by: Grandpa Jim on May 25, 2020, 08:44:14 pm
Mark D,
            Not true!! The MNR's position was that creel census findings indicated that the large majority of salmon caught were wild fish, not stocked. There was concern that the drop-off on alewives in Georgian Bay would result in an imbalance in the predator/prey situation in these waters. Both sportfish anglers and the commercial concerns expressed their dislike of the ministry's decision to increase the stocking of lakers.  Anglers were never impressed with the fighting qualities of lakers and the commercial netters found the profit margin for lake trout was very thin. Most  commercial boats now concentrate their efforts on whitefish. As a member of the Lake Huron Fisheries Stewardship Council from 2002 to 2004 it became readily evident that both the MNR and our American counterparts managing the U.S. portion of Lake Huron were definitely on the same page in regards to limiting or eliminating salmon stocking and promoting the Lake Trout on the basis that it was a natural species in these waters. Regardless of the efforts of many experienced anglers and fishing clubs to continue the stocking of chinook salmon, the top decision makers were in agreement that the Lake Trout would be designated as the apex predator in Georgian Bay and Lake Huron.
Title: Re: Salmon Spoons
Post by: Canuck on May 26, 2020, 06:10:11 am
They should restock alewife! Other than stinky beaches in the post spawn die off, I don't see the downside.  They were a good forage for all forms of big water fish and still are in lake Ontario.
Title: Re: Salmon Spoons
Post by: Grandpa Jim on May 26, 2020, 11:21:03 am
Stocking alewife prey fish seems to be a logical step in providing our off-shore game fish with an improved diet. However, Georgian Bay studies indicate that the food web is a very complicated situation. Prey fish such as smelt, shiners, ciscoes, alewife and other species are dependent on phytoplankton, zooplankton and bottom dwelling invertebrates such as diporeia. Along come zebra and quagga mussels! The organisms on which the prey fish are dependent are filtered very effectively and quickly. The numbers of prey fish are reduced dramatically. Studies showed a 90% depletion of diporeia by 2007. The alewife population had collapsed by 2003. Many of us can recall catching salmon that had large heads and tails with an emaciated body section that was unusually thin and narrow. Unfortunately the salmon seemed to be unable to switch to other food sources. Salmon were "hooked" on alewife with this dependency further stressing the population of this prey species. I found it very frustrating to catch lakers at this time that were healthy and seemed not to be affected by the reduction of prey fish. I rarely keep lakers but the few stomach content inspections I did showed the presence of smelt and sticklebacks. The salmon seemed incapable of changing their diet preference.
Back to the feasibility of stocking alewife. It ain't going to happen for two reasons. Firstly the presence of salmon in the first place was due to stocking programmes designed to eliminate alewife. As I was once told smugly by the head honcho of the Michigan DNR "salmon were stocked to eliminate the alewife presence in Lake Huron and they've finished their job!!". The second reason is that studies indicate that lakers feeding on alewife develop a problem that seriously interferes with natural reproduction.
I'm trying to find something positive here but really can't find much for the anglers who target salmon. Way back in 1992 studies showed that stocked salmon were reproducing very successfully in Georgian Bay and North Channel tributaries. This is still the case but a lot of these salmon end up travelling to Lake Michigan where the alewife population is far better than that of Georgian Bay or Lake Huron. On the Laker front - our MNR is very proud of their success with Parry Sound restoration and, I think, McGregor Bay still holds a natural population of fat and healthy lake trout.
It's damned complicated to return to the salmon situation we enjoyed so fully back in the late eighties when the prey fish were at their peak number wise.
Title: Re: Salmon Spoons
Post by: Canuck on May 26, 2020, 12:17:43 pm
Yeah, I knew the history of the alewife being invasive etc.  I live in Oakville and I remember the incredible stink along the lake after the spawn when the adults died off and washed up before they started stocking salmon to control them.


Maybe with the gobie invasion they will bring the zebra and quaga mussel population down and the balance will return.


I remember those skinny fish from a few years ago.  I caught one that weighed about 15 lbs and had the head of a 30lber on Lake Ontario. Seems like the fish we get now are fatter so hopefully something is improving. 
Title: Re: Salmon Spoons
Post by: MarkD on May 26, 2020, 02:51:29 pm
Jim, thanks for a quite comprehensive observation.
It seems to me that MNR on both sides do not have logical and profound plan regarding stocking and fishing GB and Huron. They rather follow common social hype that all native species are good and all invasive/introduced are bad by default.
However, humans are living and fishing around, and if salmon is more attractive and much faster growing species it should be considered as well.
I am personally (due to our traditional eating habits) always more happy to catch laker than salmon, but I still don't think this is right approach what MNR is doing.
And you are definitely right that there is very little hope that it will be changed.
Come back to the question about allowing two lines per boat, do you think it is possible to convince Ontario MNR to change regulation in uniform with all other Great Lakes? After all, if there is predator/prey disbalance and salmon is unwanted species one line restriction does not have much sense.
Title: Re: Salmon Spoons
Post by: MarkD on May 26, 2020, 02:58:17 pm
Also, I have a question with regards to compering LO and GB. All invasive species are same in both waters, including zebra and goby. However Ontario salmon is flourishing while GB salmon is declining. I see only two reason for that: LO is stocked much more heavily and at the same time there is no commercial fishing.
Any other reason are seen here?
Title: Re: Salmon Spoons
Post by: Grandpa Jim on May 26, 2020, 04:18:18 pm
Mark,
          Georgian Bay and most of Lake Huron are viewed as being the northerly limits for alewife as regards to successful reproduction. U.S. studies (which neighbourly included Georgian Bay) involved trawl netting each year and the results were shared cooperatively with our MNR biologists. Numbers remained level and even increased following mild winters. Conversely when cold winter conditions were experienced there was always a significant drop in the number of alewife present the following summer. Lake Ontario seems to benefit from less frigid extremes and enjoys a far more stable alewife population.
           Not all studies are entirely accurate however. I clearly recall a year when the MNR issued alarming reductions in their early season trawl results for alewife in Lake Ontario. Sounded like the summer fishing would be very poor. As it turned out, we had one of the most successful summers in years. The alewife were so thick along our north shore that downrigger rods shook continuously from the lines cutting through massive schools of this prey fish. The Great Salmon hunt showed consistentl high weights each week. If a king didn't top 34 pounds there was no point in entering the fish for the top ten weekly prizes. The winning king that year topped 42 pounds.
Title: Re: Salmon Spoons
Post by: MarkD on May 26, 2020, 05:33:16 pm
Thanks, Jim.
What about Superior? Do you have any knowledge about salmon/trout fishing/population over there?
What actually were forage fish for predator in Great Lakes before alewife and smelt were introduced? I mean, I know there are few native bait fish, but seems like native were not so abundant if alewife and smelt were introduced?
As for the fact that many biological studies are not accurate you don't need to warn me. I know it very well and wanted to mention about it but just hesitate.
Title: Re: Salmon Spoons
Post by: Canuck on May 27, 2020, 09:09:27 am
Superior has salmon, including atlantic salmon and pink salmon.  The St. Mary's river right at Sault Ste. Marie is popular for summer Atlantic fishing.
Title: Re: Salmon Spoons
Post by: Homelands101 on May 27, 2020, 11:27:45 am
Itís wild how the majority of recreational anglers would like to have a 2 rod limit and thereís no way to get the MNRís attention..I will sign a petition at any time
Title: Re: Salmon Spoons
Post by: cheezypoof on May 27, 2020, 02:16:23 pm
2 rods per angler? Yes please!

Jim, thanks for the great info - reminded me of 'Death and Life of the Great Lakes' - I highly recommend this book for anyone interested in the lakes' more recent ecological history, there's a good amount of info on the fishery. As you say, some species like lakers and whitefish appear to be adapting to what's on offer, the chinooks aren't.

I'm wondering about Atlantics as a potential GB sport fish. I've read they have a more diverse diet (gobies?), but it appears no stocking programs in GB?
Title: Re: Salmon Spoons
Post by: Grandpa Jim on May 27, 2020, 02:38:38 pm
There has been a significant push to reestablish Atlantic Salmon in the Great Lakes. The result of these efforts has been quite unsuccesful in most areas. There is a program from the American University in Sault Ste. Marie which results in some success, especially in the St.Mary's River region as previously mentioned by Canuck. They raise Atlantic Salmon but do not release the fish until they are a decent size. The survival rate exceeds that of organizations that release salmon close to the fingerling size. I was quite surprised to catch an Atlantic a few years back just south of Christian Island. It was a good sized fish and showed no indication that it had been suffering in any way from lack of forage fish. My good wife demanded that I not release Atlantics under any circumstances due to the excellent tablefare it provided. I was at a loss as to where the Atlantic had originated until someone dropped a note concerning the hatchery at the American University in the Sault.
Title: Re: Salmon Spoons
Post by: cheezypoof on May 27, 2020, 04:26:10 pm
Landing an Atlantic would be a pleasant surprise, and indeed it would have to go in the cooler - I've never caught one, are they as much fun as a chinook?
Title: Re: Salmon Spoons
Post by: Canuck on May 28, 2020, 10:34:59 am
There is a web cam live at the Sault Locks that shows a lot of Atlantics in the summer/ear;y fall.  There are a lot and its fun to watch.
https://www.lssu.edu/cfre/cfre-fishcam/ (https://www.lssu.edu/cfre/cfre-fishcam/)
Title: Re: Salmon Spoons
Post by: work2fish on May 30, 2020, 09:35:46 am
Caught this nice unicorn early season on lake O. It was extremely acrobatic and faught great. I released it due to the struggling population there, hence the name unicorn. (https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200530/ed0aeb1c269b5e0bb3e961e6316c31d0.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200530/f322ea2623be79cf352c8169cb2b874c.jpg)

Sent from my SM-G960W using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Salmon Spoons
Post by: MarkD on June 01, 2020, 11:15:28 am
Superior has salmon, including atlantic salmon and pink salmon.  The St. Mary's river right at Sault Ste. Marie is popular for summer Atlantic fishing.
I was asking about Superior to compare it with GB. As Jim said alewife are doing poorly in GB and Huron as it is Northern range for alewife. I assume that Superior doesn't have alewife so it is interesting how strong population of salmons is in Superior and what is their diet.
So, Frank, you did mention Atlantic and pink salmons but not chinook and rainbow. Does Superior has a good population of chinook and rainbow?
Title: Re: Salmon Spoons
Post by: MarkD on June 01, 2020, 11:19:22 am
Caught this nice unicorn early season on lake O. It was extremely acrobatic and faught great. I released it due to the struggling population there, hence the name unicorn.
I don't know what is "unicorn"... Seems to me as brown... Is it not?
Title: Re: Salmon Spoons
Post by: work2fish on June 01, 2020, 11:24:56 am
That is an Atlantic.  They are referred to as unicorn because they are not very prevalent despite stocking efforts.

Beautiful fish.

Sent from my SM-G950W using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Salmon Spoons
Post by: Floats Gone on June 01, 2020, 11:25:42 am
by unicorn he means Atlantic Salmon
Title: Re: Salmon Spoons
Post by: MarkD on June 01, 2020, 11:34:07 am
Ok, thanks!
Title: Re: Salmon Spoons
Post by: MarkD on June 01, 2020, 11:39:09 am
So, Jim, come back to the question about two rods on GB, do you think it is impossible to push MNR for that?
Title: Re: Salmon Spoons
Post by: Mrbeee on June 01, 2020, 01:45:22 pm
They are starting to look at changing some regs on the Great Lakes   So if enough people contacted them. They may look into it. 
Title: Re: Salmon Spoons
Post by: Homelands101 on June 02, 2020, 11:17:25 am
I am sure there would be support. Need to get some sort of a petition going either online or a hard copy, presented with real current lake information....wouldnít see the harm in a few extra lake trout pulled from the lake
Title: Re: Salmon Spoons
Post by: MarkD on June 02, 2020, 12:28:06 pm
No doubt there will be some support, but I'm not sure which way we should act. There might be a lot of stakeholders here, such as local fishing clubs (for ex. Georgian Triangle Anglersí Association), OFAH, Great Lakes Fishery Commission and other which I'm not aware off.
I'm expecting Jim (Grandpa Jim) could suggest something here.
Title: Re: Salmon Spoons
Post by: MarkD on June 02, 2020, 12:32:06 pm
It's not difficult to start a petition, bu I'm not sure what impact it would get and who is going to consider it.
Title: Re: Salmon Spoons
Post by: andrew9638 on June 02, 2020, 01:10:41 pm
I was asking about Superior to compare it with GB. As Jim said alewife are doing poorly in GB and Huron as it is Northern range for alewife. I assume that Superior doesn't have alewife so it is interesting how strong population of salmons is in Superior and what is their diet.
So, Frank, you did mention Atlantic and pink salmons but not chinook and rainbow. Does Superior has a good population of chinook and rainbow?

I lived up in Thunder Bay 15 yrs ago and used to catch tons of rainbows in superior tributarys during spawning runs.
Saw lots of kings running up the nipigon river, a lot of guys had success fishing them out of boats.
Also saw pink salmon running.
One time I landed a huge coaster brookie in the McKenzie river while steelhead fishing, that was an awesome surprise!!
There were good smelt runs too, scooped a few of those.
That country is still my favourite place on earth, Iíd love to go back!! Now marriage and young kids keeping me down south.
Camping out on crown land on those gorgeous superior river mouths, those were my best days ever.
Title: Re: Salmon Spoons
Post by: MarkD on June 02, 2020, 02:26:39 pm
I did drive through North of Superior few years ago. Absolutely gorgeous land and the lake! I was only dreaming how good fishing would be there and what kind of living would be up North around such enormous lake...
So it appears that among all deep Great lakes only GB is performing poorly on Salmon and its pray fish (not sure about HUron).
I'm guessing while it is easy and may be partially true to blame alewife population collapse for this, there is something else if Superior doesn't hold any alewife and seems like doing much better than GB in terms of salmon population.
Title: Re: Salmon Spoons
Post by: Tom McCutcheon on June 03, 2020, 07:59:52 pm
In order to assist with changing regulations for a Fish Management Zone (FMZ) you would be wise to get involved with the discussions. Each FMZ has representatives from the OMNRF, commercial fishers, First Nation groups, cottage associations, boating clubs, fishing clubs etc. along with the OFAH.

Georgian Bay falls into FMZ 14

https://www.ontario.ca/page/fisheries-management-zone-14-fmz-14
Title: Re: Salmon Spoons
Post by: MarkD on June 03, 2020, 10:04:16 pm
In order to assist with changing regulations for a Fish Management Zone (FMZ) you would be wise to get involved with the discussions. Each FMZ has representatives from the OMNRF, commercial fishers, First Nation groups, cottage associations, boating clubs, fishing clubs etc. along with the OFAH.
Yes, right. As I never was involved in such discussions and personally have very limited ability to do that, I think it is better to try to find someone who is familiar with the situation and also interested in changing regs. Then, I and may be someone else would be willing to give support for that.
Title: Re: Salmon Spoons
Post by: Krawler on June 03, 2020, 10:31:55 pm
Has always been an interest of mine to get more involved in the waters we fish.  I will look into this further myself. 

Thanks for continuing the discussion.
Title: Re: Salmon Spoons
Post by: Floats Gone on June 04, 2020, 11:11:08 pm
Its seems as if every year the topic comes up about being able to fish 2 rods while trolling out on the bay. I spoke with an MNR officer this year about it at the fishing show and what he said was basically that the one rod limit doesn't really pertain to salmon/trout guys. The one rod limit is in place so when guys are trolling around the 30 000 islands for say pike or walleye, it lowers the chances of out of season fish being caught/harmed as well as those anglers will have a harder time being able to catch there limit fish. I asked why not just have an exception for us salmon/trout guys and he said it could be hard to differentiate what species people would be fishing for and anglers could claim, for example, they are fishing skinny water rainbows even if they were fishing for something else.
He also said discussions and plans about having zones, say like anything west of Beausoleil island, being opened up so you would able to use two rods while trolling have been brought up before so we shall see.
Title: Re: Salmon Spoons
Post by: MarkD on June 05, 2020, 04:29:23 pm
Great info, Floats Gone, thank you!
That clarifies the things, however, still doesn't make much sense to me. GB has possession limit only 2 for pike. Pretty tough, especially comparing neighboring "internal" lakes and rivers (there is 4 for Zone 15). That's not logical, as it is much easily to fish out a small lake than GB.
Anyway, I think creating zones in GB is the right way to go.
Does anyone has an idea what kind of discussion they are going to have - any info on that? May be we could drop our 5 cents to that....
Title: Re: Salmon Spoons
Post by: Downrigger newbe on July 14, 2020, 08:12:19 pm
My son and I have been new to downrigging in GB for the last two years and only washed our Williams, linesmen and various spoons. We troll from 2.8 to 3.2 mostly through Thompson hole.
I have pinned various spots but no luck not even a bass or pike .....  well a FISH lol I am ready to call it ... I would never survive as a fisherman. Any help would be greatly appreciated.
Title: Re: Salmon Spoons
Post by: MarkD on July 15, 2020, 01:53:26 pm
Newbe,
there is a lot of info and discussions here  and on other forums about downrigging technique etc. Just go through.
I started downrigging last year and initially was also frustrated with no result. I got advice from different people to go to lake Ontario where fishing is much better than in GB and get some confidence.
I went a couple times, got couple fish each time and got some confidence.
Then it is hard to advise unless you ask specific questions.But really, almost everything is already answered. There are a lot of videos on youtube as well.
Title: Re: Salmon Spoons
Post by: Tom McCutcheon on July 15, 2020, 04:30:59 pm
Great info, Floats Gone, thank you!
That clarifies the things, however, still doesn't make much sense to me. GB has possession limit only 2 for pike. Pretty tough, especially comparing neighboring "internal" lakes and rivers (there is 4 for Zone 15). That's not logical, as it is much easily to fish out a small lake than GB.
Anyway, I think creating zones in GB is the right way to go.
Does anyone has an idea what kind of discussion they are going to have - any info on that? May be we could drop our 5 cents to that....

You sound like a passionate person and I don't know if this will help answer your questions MarkD, but here goes.

If you wish to get involved with ANY of the FMZs you will need to contact the OMNRF Zone Mgr. and inquire how. Another alternative, a lot of the fishing clubs in the area may already have a representative on the management committee. Join one or several of those clubs and ask if you could assist by volunteering.
Once you get involved, it can be quite rewarding physically as well as knowing that you may have made a difference for the fishery and the future generations of anglers who will continue to enjoy the resource.

Good luck.
Title: Re: Salmon Spoons
Post by: MarkD on July 15, 2020, 05:05:27 pm
Thanks, Tom.
Of course, I was thinking about joining a club, but I live in Mississauga and fishing in GB and basically interested only in GB... Quite difficult to find time to go there even for fishing...
Also, I'm not a person who talk clearly and whom people enjoy to talk with. As well as have impaired hearing. So I'm trying to avoid any live communication and mostly use written correspondence...
However, if I would find someone who involve in any activities discussed here I would try to help whatever I can.
Title: Re: Salmon Spoons
Post by: Tom McCutcheon on July 15, 2020, 05:37:45 pm
Makes sense Mark.

My advice would also be good for anyone else who lives (home owners association) or cottages (cottage association) on Georgian Bay and could attend the meetings.
Title: Re: Salmon Spoons
Post by: rybka2019 on July 18, 2020, 12:10:39 am
MarkD/Downrigger newbe:  Downrigging can be frustrating. Too much eater to cover vertically and horizontally.  Have you ever looked at something like the Cannonlink system.  Itís a older product that linked certain fishfinders directly to certain downriggers and allows you to control the downrigger using the fishfinders buttons.  I love it for diwnrigging, I find being able to see the fish on sonar and then being able to adjust the downrigger up or down almost instantly really helps catch more fish and itís a bit like playing a video game so it keeps everyone in the boat a little more interested in whatís going on.  Purists might frown on relying on technology so much but it help makes up for not having the luxury of years of fishing experience and local knowledge.  If you not have limited time to fish something like that might help you increase the odds and fun. Hard to find them these days but sometimes you can find used ones online.
Title: Re: Salmon Spoons
Post by: MarkD on July 19, 2020, 03:09:20 pm
Thanks for suggestion, rybka2019
It is indeed outdated product and anyway it would require the whole system update: downrigger, sonar plus Cannonlink system itself. Tons of money.
I'm wondering if anyone tried to attach an icefishing underwater camera to a cannonball? As I can guess the main problem here would be the drug from the camera's cable. But if something like that would be possible that would be a really good thing to entertain everybody in the boat....
Title: Re: Salmon Spoons
Post by: Tom McCutcheon on July 19, 2020, 04:06:35 pm
I know many people attach Go-Pro cameras to their cannon ball, as well as just in front of the lure or attractant/flasher. I am not sure of the technology (not a techy) but the videos are awesome and you may be able to view it live on board the boat somehow.
Title: Re: Salmon Spoons
Post by: rybka2019 on July 21, 2020, 01:05:39 am
Iíve used a Waterwolf camera trolling (but not downrigging) and it worked pretty well.  The follows and misses can be just as entertaining as the hits. 
Title: Re: Salmon Spoons
Post by: John Kendell on July 21, 2020, 10:48:08 pm
I also use a Waterwolf - I mounted the holder to my cannonball fin.  Great clarity up here on Gbay.  Spotted 3 salmon swiping at my spoon tonight, but only had one of them pop the rod and spit the hook.
Title: Re: Salmon Spoons
Post by: MarkD on July 22, 2020, 04:14:41 pm
Seems like Waterwolf is no longer available. Their website offers the manual but not the camera itself....
Title: Re: Salmon Spoons
Post by: ray-can on July 22, 2020, 04:27:26 pm
https://trollpro.com/shop/trollpro3-dr-down-rigger-series/
Title: Re: Salmon Spoons
Post by: MarkD on July 22, 2020, 04:49:09 pm
TrollPro produces only accessories to the GoPro or Garmin cameras.
They all too expensive.
There seems to be a cheaper alternative
https://gofishcam.com/products/gofish-cam
 but it is connected in line while I think it is better to connect to the cannon ball directly.
Not sure though...
Title: Re: Salmon Spoons
Post by: Mrbeee on July 22, 2020, 08:29:28 pm
 https://www.ebay.ca/itm/Fishing-Camera-Waterproof-Under-Water-Video-Recorder-Full-HD-1080-Line-Finer-Rod/261146314373?hash=item3ccd888685:g:4ooAAOSwpLNYAidp (https://www.ebay.ca/itm/Fishing-Camera-Waterproof-Under-Water-Video-Recorder-Full-HD-1080-Line-Finer-Rod/261146314373?hash=item3ccd888685:g:4ooAAOSwpLNYAidp)
Title: Re: Salmon Spoons
Post by: MarkD on July 22, 2020, 09:53:37 pm
Thanks!
Advantage of this one is 3 hours of recording on the battery compared to 2.5h on GoFish, but disadvantage is 164 ft waterproof compared to 500 ft on GoFish.

And among the other things I'd like to know what exactly my sonar shows at 200 ft ....
Title: Re: Salmon Spoons
Post by: Chris B on July 29, 2020, 09:06:08 am
One spoon brand that has failed to be mentioned on this sub-forum is the Gripper. How many of you are familiar with them?
Title: Re: Salmon Spoons
Post by: BillM on August 01, 2020, 12:06:59 pm
I also use a Waterwolf - I mounted the holder to my cannonball fin.  Great clarity up here on Gbay.  Spotted 3 salmon swiping at my spoon tonight, but only had one of them pop the rod and spit the hook.

I want a camera but dunno if the ticker could take all the fish that come up, sniff and never bite lol! 
Title: Re: Salmon Spoons
Post by: awbringl on August 12, 2020, 01:29:13 pm
One spoon brand that has failed to be mentioned on this sub-forum is the Gripper. How many of you are familiar with them?

Not at all familiar with them and haven't seen them locally.  Where do you get them, and how do they differ from say...NKs, Stingers, Silver Fox, Hotfish, etc...  Maybe a pic??
Title: Re: Salmon Spoons
Post by: Kingfisher on August 13, 2020, 06:52:20 am
I just received an order of 8 Grippers in a variety of colours, looking forward to giving them a try next trip out to GB.
Title: Re: Salmon Spoons
Post by: Chris B on August 13, 2020, 08:25:47 am
Not at all familiar with them and haven't seen them locally.  Where do you get them, and how do they differ from say...NKs, Stingers, Silver Fox, Hotfish, etc...  Maybe a pic??

They are made of lexan instead of metal, which makes them light weight. Hooks and split rings are made of stainless steel. Constructed with high quality tapes and can be custom ordered. Some body colours absorb light through the face and reflect it through the edges. The biggest difference comes in operating speed, as they are made to be trolled fast (2.7-3.5MPH ball speed) which is effective for salmon/trout and breaks from the industry standard of slow moving baits. Should you wish to get in contact with the company or see pictures of their spoons you can find them on instagram @gripperlures
Title: Re: Salmon Spoons
Post by: awbringl on August 13, 2020, 12:45:08 pm
They are made of lexan instead of metal, which makes them light weight. Hooks and split rings are made of stainless steel. Constructed with high quality tapes and can be custom ordered. Some body colours absorb light through the face and reflect it through the edges. The biggest difference comes in operating speed, as they are made to be trolled fast (2.7-3.5MPH ball speed) which is effective for salmon/trout and breaks from the industry standard of slow moving baits. Should you wish to get in contact with the company or see pictures of their spoons you can find them on instagram @gripperlures

Thanks for the info Chris.  Lexan eh?  At times I run the Apex Trolling lures - also made of a plastic type material (not sure exact material) and designed to be run 3+ mph.  But they are not really spoons. I assume these Grippers are shaped and styled like a traditional spoon?

I am not on the facebook or instagram. But I will try to find them...I always find it interesting to try new designs and see what works.

p.s. I lost a very big salmon last night.   :'(  I believe the biggest I've ever had on a line.  Hooked with a small flasher and freedom cut herring lure. 



 
Title: Re: Salmon Spoons
Post by: Chris B on August 13, 2020, 01:38:40 pm
Thanks for the info Chris.  Lexan eh?  At times I run the Apex Trolling lures - also made of a plastic type material (not sure exact material) and designed to be run 3+ mph.  But they are not really spoons. I assume these Grippers are shaped and styled like a traditional spoon?

I am not on the facebook or instagram. But I will try to find them...I always find it interesting to try new designs and see what works.

p.s. I lost a very big salmon last night.   :'(  I believe the biggest I've ever had on a line.  Hooked with a small flasher and freedom cut herring lure.

They are a spoon but not shaped like a traditional one. I have tried to post pictures with my phone but the file size is too big. I am not overly familiar with how to use this site yet but if you send me a PM I may be able to send you some pictures.

I truly feel for you on losing a big salmon. Was guiding some friends a couple weeks ago and had to hand the rod to a newbie with a big screamer on the line. He fought the fish for almost 20 minutes and was almost spooled (350 plus yards of 17lb test). Almost cried man tears when the hook pulled, fish stayed deep the whole time, usually the sign of a giant.
Title: Re: Salmon Spoons
Post by: Wilbur007 on August 13, 2020, 08:42:20 pm
These spoons/material were introduced in the early '90s.  At that time they were marketed as "The Illuminator".  The company sent me a box of these lure to try out/promote.  How successful?  Well, .....when someone asked how I made out that day, I would throw a huge number at them and follow it buy claiming "all caught on the orange Illuminator"!  They knew then that it was pure B.S.

Here's a photo of what they looked like.  The came in clear colours and in magnum size as well. 

Are these similar to the design of the "Gripper"?
Title: Re: Salmon Spoons
Post by: Krawler on August 13, 2020, 09:07:51 pm
The gripper is shaped like a Diamond, straight lines.  Not your typical trolling bait by the look and feel of them.  But they catch fish and thatís all that matters. 
I donít have a pic off hand but they donít resemble a spoon shape at all. 
Title: Re: Salmon Spoons
Post by: Saugeen Drifter on August 14, 2020, 10:16:07 pm
Great read fisher's; Hey Krawler which port do you fish out of? Don't need your GPS location, just curious where on GB you are having such a great spoon bite, I'm out of Owen Sound and have yet to get any real spoon pattern established.
Title: Re: Salmon Spoons
Post by: Krawler on August 15, 2020, 09:29:25 am
Hey drifter, anywhere from Giants Tomb to Balm beach
Meat has saved a few skunks this year but I only run it when I get suitable temps below 60í or when fish are staging.

99% of our fish come off spoons.

I have yet to determine why this might be the case.  I need to spend more time on other ports to determine that but I think it may have to do with water clarity. 
We donít get them on flys either.